Mira Terada, the head of the Foundation to Battle Injustice, interviewed Miodrag Zarkovic, a journalist from Serbia who spent more than four months in the territory of Donbass and witnessed Ukrainian war crimes. The head of the Foundation found out from Zarkovich why journalists of major Western media refuse to come to the DPR, for what reason none of the American military and political leadership was court-martialed after the bombing of Yugoslavia and what kind of world order awaits us after the end of the Ukrainian conflict.
Mira Terada: Good afternoon, dear Miodrag! Thank you for taking the time to interview the Foundation to Battle Injustice. Tell us, please, how do you assess the progress of the special military operation of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine?
Miodrag Zarkovic: Well, many people in Donbass itself, me included, while I was there, were asking the question why are some things taking so long? Maybe there is a military explanation to that question. Maybe there isn’t. I mean, people are getting little impatient, especially in Donetsk, because Donetsk is getting shelled on a daily basis, much worse than it has been shelled for the past eight years. I mean, don’t get me wrong, it was shelled for the past eight years, but not as harshly and as rigorously as now for the last two and a half, three months. I mean, people are dying in Donetsk. Why is Russian military unable to protect Donetsk some more? That is a question that that’s on everyone’s mind. Not only Donetsk, but Gorlovka too, Makeyevka too. Donetsk cities, Donetsk towns, DPR towns are very much exposed to the intense shelling of Ukrainians. And that is a big concern. I mean, as far as everything else goes, I’ve been talking to the people who live in the liberated areas in, for example, Mariupol and in other towns and villages and cities. And mainly they are happy that they are now part of the DPR or LPR. But of course, they are many of them are in shock because of the intense fighting that’s happened there. Some of them are blaming Russia and special operation for their troubles, you know, but the majority is blaming Ukrainians. They all keep saying, you know, “we are sorry that this didn’t happen eight years ago, we are sorry that we had to wait so long, but at last, at long last, we finally are part of the DPR as we wanted from the beginning.” I can only agree with those sentiments. I can only trust because, you know, as a foreign correspondent, I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to judge it on my own, especially because I’m not a military expert. So, I can only recall those sentiments as I’ve heard them.
Many military experts and political scientists agree that this conflict began only because of the failed foreign policy of the leaders of Western countries. In your opinion, what are the true causes of this conflict?
Well, there are many causes. I mean, Serbs can easily sympathize with Russia because we’ve on the receiving end of Western imperialism for far too long, for decades and decades, maybe even centuries. Russia is at the receiving end of Western imperialism for probably two centuries or something close to it. And the Western imperialism is the cause of that. They simply want to control the entire world. They simply want to dictate to everyone else what everyone else should do, what everyone should think, what everyone else should eat, or whatever else should breathe. That is the real cause. They get nervous every time somebody disobeys, somebody disagrees with them, somebody doesn’t want to obey their orders, their commands, or their advice. And in this particular situation, the main cause is the Maidan coup. Why Maidan coup happened is something that I find a fascinating question. I will get to that a little later. But let’s not forget that Ukraine lost any even trace of independence the moment Victoria Nuland picked the next government. You can say about previous governments of Ukraine, whatever you want. I mean, one is totally entitled to think whatever one wants about Yanukovych’s government or Yushchenko’s government or Kuchma’s government or whatever. But at the very least, and on some level, those governments were chosen by people maybe misled people, maybe confused people, maybe frightened people, but at least they were on some level, they were chosen by the people of Ukraine, a majority of the people of Ukraine. Yatsenyuk’s government in February of 2014 was chosen not by Ukrainian people, but by Victoria Nuland. How do we know that? Because of the intercepted phone call between her and Geoffrey Pyatt. Nowadays, everybody seems to conveniently forget about that conversation. But the conversation happened in, if I recall correctly, in January. One can easily revisit that conversation right now and see that clearly the Yatsenyuk government was composed totally according to Victoria Nuland’s command to Geoffrey Pyatt. Now, as some of the commentators said, back in the day, it could very well be just a coincidence, but we would be endlessly naive if we believe that there are coincidences on that level. Victoria Nuland is not that lucky. Victoria Nuland is that rotten and that corrupt, but not that lucky, she got the outcomes she wanted. She got the outcome that George Soros and the American government paid dearly for in previous years. They were bragging about, please, you remind me, $5 billion or something like that that they invested in Ukraine. I mean, how do you invest in a country? You can invest in an enterprise. You can invest in a business. You can invest in a person. I’m open to suggestions, but how can you invest in a country? The very expression investing in the country suggests something behind the scenes, something rotten is happening. So the main cause for this disaster, for this catastrophe is the Maidan coup. More precisely, the government that resulted from the Maidan coup and everything else was practically unavoidable. First of all, Crimea had no choice but to revolt against the illegitimate, violent government that Victoria Nuland picked, that Victoria Nuland appointed. Donbass didn’t have a choice but to follow suit. Donbas had to follow the example of Crimea. That’s it. I mean, I’m only surprised, just like many were back in the day, that other regions, eastern regions of Ukraine didn’t follow the same example. Of course, Odessa did try and then happened possibly the most infamous incident back in those days, the Odessa massacre that we’ve only, you know, fueled the revolt in Donbas on May 2nd in 2014. Let’s remind everyone at least 40 people, and by some accounts even 100 people, were burnt alive in Odessa in Hall of syndicate. Something like that the syndicate building was the site of the of the massacre. So yeah I mean many conveniently choose to forget about those incidents. But if we recall Victoria Nuland orders to Geoffrey Pyatt that would follow to the letter and the Odessa massacre, then everything else is not only explainable but very easy to understand. That is the cause of the Donbass, let’s call it, rebellion. Now, the moment the Donbass republics declared independence, again, Western imperialism, as it has always been of course, sends armies to unarmed people of Donbass. At that point, Donbass had to defend itself. We have another instance of Donbass having no choice but to defend itself. And after that the war broke out. After the war broke out, it was only a matter of time before Russia officially joins the war. Of course, Russia was involved in the war in a way that it was sending humanitarian aid to Donbass. It was providing Donbass with all the logistical help. But there were no official soldiers, Russian soldiers on the ground. There were Russian citizens who volunteered to fight in Donbass, to protect Donbas from Ukrainian aggression. But until February of this year, there was no Russian military, Russian official or Russian military on the ground. But it was only a matter of time because Ukraine had no intention of backing down. Ukraine obviously had the intention to continue with war crimes against Donbass, against Donbass people. So, it was only a matter of time before Russia finally joins to the rescue. And so after the coup, after intervention and after the massacre everything else was unavoidable.
Do you think the results of the special military operation of the Russian Federation will lead to the complete collapse of the Western unipolar world? Is a new world order waiting for us, and if so, how can you describe it?
I can only hope to repeat once again, I am a Serb and we Serbs are so definitely and sadly, one of the biggest victims of the current world order, the world order that was established after the collapse of the Cold War, after the collapse of the Berlin Wall, let’s say, and during the 90s and ever since we’ve been suffering not only Serbs in Serbia, but Serbs in other countries emerged from the breakup of Yugoslavia, like Bosnia and Herzegovina, where we have a big Serbian entity called Republika Srpska. I mean, Bosnia and Herzegovina never existed in in a shape and form that it’s forced to exist now. Bosnia and Herzegovina is one of the best examples of what is wrong with the current world order. Kosovo and Metohija is Serbian is province that has been occupied ever since 1999 after the bombing of Serbia. Kosovo and Metohija is another example of everything wrong with the current world order. What is the current war older? It’s the order of you do what Americans tell you to do. And maybe it wouldn’t be so bad if Americans knew to even think about other people’s interests, but obviously they are incapable of that. Even on the individual level, even do I have many friends in America and I give some there are some Americans that I respect very much but in general, Americans don’t think, don’t look like capable of even thinking about what other people desire or for a fear of or whatever. Americans don’t appear capable of sympathizing or empathizing on any level with anyone who isn’t themselves. When you have in charge a culture like that, it is going to create problems, problems like the one in the Balkans, problems like the ones in the Middle East, problems like the ones in Libya and Syria and eventually the problems like the ones in Donbas, the ones in Ukraine. Russia with its rich history, with its extremely strong culture, with its possibly unparalleled sense of pride had not a single reason to tolerate such world order despite of Russia did try to get along for more than a decade, even after Yeltsin stepped down, Russia with its new leadership embodied by Vladimir Putin, did try to get along. What did it receive in return? Threats, blackmailing, insults, challenges and eventually direct attacks on Russian population or pro-Russian population if we are talking about, for example, South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russia, once again, had no choice but to stand up to the current world order. And that is why at this point, Russia is the hero, the champion of the biggest part of the world. You cannot see that by watching the mainstream media, but I think that anybody has contacts across the world will tell you, will confirm that at this point, huge majority of the planet cheers for Russia, supports Russia. In that sense, uh, I can only hope that the New World Order will look nothing like the current one. If Russia emerges like the biggest power in the planet, that will be a good sign because I don’t think that Russia even intends to order anyone how to live, how to breathe, how to eat. I mean, there is no sign that anybody in Russia or anybody representing Russia would ever shove down their throats the new gender politics. This is actually the war between sane people who do recognize that there are only two sexes, that every human individual is either male or female, and insane people who wants to, who want to force us to think, to accept that there are 80 genders. I think that by now there is more than 80 genders registered in New York, I mean, in Sweden, expressively even worse, you know, 90 or something. And so yeah, in a way this is the war between sane people and insane civilization that just lost, totally lost control of itself and of everything else, or even lost control of its narratives. I can only hope that the new world order will be more just. I don’t think that any world order will be totally just and maybe it wouldn’t be good even. I mean, who knows? As far as we can guess, looking back, all the previous world orders were more just then the than the Pax Americana, maybe even during the Pax Romana was more just than then Pax Americana. Just remember that in Pax Romana mothers were even smothering their child in order not to give them, not to surrender them to the Roman soldiers. And even this world order didn’t mess with the basic family, even that world order didn’t come up to idea that there is 30 or something genders, you know. So in a way the American world order, the Pax Americana is possibly the worst thing the human species experience ever, not to forget not the least of which is Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I mean the America is so far the only nation that ever used nuclear weapons in a situation that was totally unnecessary. Just like Putin said was, “Yes Stalin would possibly use nuclear weapons at the beginning of the World War Two.” That would be even justified in terms of military logistics, military logic, but he will definitely not use them in 1945. Americans used nuclear weapons at the end of war. So, I mean, that tells everything, everything we need to know about Americans and about the world order they created. I can only hope that the next world order is not dictated by them and it’s more just more honest than the previous one.
The other day, Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic called the conflict in Ukraine a world war in which the West is fighting Russia using Ukrainian soldiers. Why do you think the Ukrainian political leadership has not yet realized that it has become just a tool in the hands of the West?
I think they realize that. I think they actually like that. Or even if they don’t realize that by now, by this point, they will never realize that. Certain people are just blind to the truth, even if the truth stares at their face. And I mean, regardless of if it’s one or the other day, either don’t realize or don’t care to realize, either way, we shouldn’t expect any sanity on their part.
The Serbian leader also suggested that if the West does not accept the Russian suggestions on Ukraine, “there will be hell on Earth”. How would you comment on this statement and does the West intend to fulfill Moscow’s demands?
I don’t know what did he mean by hell on Earth, but I can tell that I witnessed this similar sentiment, let’s say a similar opinion in Donbas itself by the soldiers itself. Russia, I mean Russia plus Donbas, they are ready to win the war no matter what, because they realize that the war is essential to the very survival of Russia as a cultural, political and ethnic identity. And because of that, I actually don’t think that the West will ever accept any demands, that the West will give up. They will most definitely fight to the last Ukrainian. Ones the Ukrainians stop fighting, which may happen sooner or later, that will be a big problem for the West because I don’t think that any other nation is willing to get into the war with Russians. They are all afraid of Russians, as they should be. They are all terrified of the possibility of the war with Russia. So I think that the once Ukrainians lay down their weapons, there will be peace, but a very intense peace, very, unpleasant peace. The West will continue with provocations no matter what, because they cannot accept the world order in which they are not the loudest voice.
Serbia is one of the few EU countries that does not support sanctions against Russia, despite increasing pressure from the EU. How do you think this could turn out for Serbia?
I don’t think that we will face any serious consequences and even if we do, I can only repeat what Russian and Donbas soldiers themselves said to me many times: “If you need our help, we will be there.” So even if we face some serious consequences, we’ll be on the right side of history and that’s never a bad thing. I don’t know what consequences they can impose on us that are worse than what we’ve been through only 20 years ago. My town, the very town I’m in right now, was bombed heavily only 23 years ago. It wasn’t actually a carpet bombing, but it was similar to carpet bombing. It was even worse than how Donbas is shelled today. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to diminish the horrors of Donbas, but what we’ve been through in the spring of 1999 was really even worse. It was only three months, but it was worse on a daily basis. It was worse. So I don’t know what can they do to us that they haven’t done already and they didn’t break us. So we’ll probably be okay.
NATO transfers weapons and equipment to Ukrainian servicemen, which are then used to kill civilians in Donbass and destroy infrastructure. Can we say that the countries of the North Atlantic Alliance support the genocide of the civilian population?
Of course, they supported the genocide against Serbs, actually few genocides against Serbs. There are practically no Serbs in Albanian controlled parts of Kosovo anymore. There are virtually no Serbs in Croatia anymore. There are no Serbs in Bosnian Muslims controlled parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Serbs in Montenegro didn’t suffer genocide, but they are without certain rights, certain human rights, certain civil rights, they are constantly attacked on the basis of their language or religion or whatever. All of that is supported by the West. All of it is only possible because of the Western support. None of those nations or countries, Croatia, Bosnia or Kosovo, which is not the country of course, but none of them would we ever be able to harm Serbs in any way if they were not supported by the West, just like they were supported by Nazi Germany in the 1940s and they did the same thing in the 1950s. So I mean that’s why the West is supporting them, that’s why the West is sending those the weapons, because they are used against civilian population in Donbass, as simple as that.
There is irrefutable evidence that the United States allocated hundreds of millions of dollars to train and supply Ukrainian nationalists, just as they financed Albanian terrorists during the conflict in Yugoslavia. What do you think the United States is trying to achieve by financing extremely radical groups?
“We came, we saw, he died.” This is the direct quote of then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. That was her reaction to the news that Muammar Gaddafi was assassinated on the streets of Tripoli, Libya. They are happy when they hear about other peoples, other nations sufferings. And that is what they’re trying to achieve. I mean, that, that’s been their goal the entire time. Just look at their record in South America. They organized one coup, one bloody coup after another in practically every South American country until they would get the government they can fully control. They hold no punches in pursuing their own twisted, imperialistic interests. That’s what they want with Donbass too. They would like nothing more than to break Russia on the issue of Donbass. Hopefully that won’t happen, but that is what they actually want, to break Russia, not Donbas itself, but Russia. They know that the fate of Russia is at stake. Maybe some of the Russians don’t get that, but the Americans, American leadership, American military, American propagandists, they are fully aware that the war in Donbass is about Russia’s survival, if you want, because, you know, just like any country, Russia and Serbia too have to protect their own. If you’re not able to protect your own, you’re not a country, you’re not a functioning country. And Donbass is Russia’s own. It is on the historical grounds. It is on the cultural grounds. It is based on the will of the people of Donbass. So if Russia is unable to protect Donbass, it would reflect very poorly on Russia. That is why Americans are trying to break Donbass, to break Russia in Donbass. And as far as I’ve seen, they won’t be able to do that.
According to the statements of independent foreign journalists who cover the conflict in Ukraine, there is not a single correspondent from major European or American media outlets in the territory of Donbass. However, this does not prevent the media in the West from publishing news about events in Ukraine literally every day, and replicating the information provided by Kiev. Why do you think this is happening?
Okay, I can testify that I spent roughly four months this year in Donbass, mainly in Donetsk, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single crew from any of the mainstream Western media there. I know that I missed some of them by week when I, when I was in Lugansk in February, they were in Donetsk, but only for a couple of days. And they never came back. Their entire empire, let’s call it an empire, is based on lies, is based on propaganda. They probably aren’t as strong militarily as they think they are or as they want everyone to believe they are. Probably not as rich economically as they think they are, or as they want everyone to believe. They are definitely not culturally as strong as they think they are and as they want everyone to believe. In order to maintain those false assumptions they have to keep up with the propaganda. And how you keep up with propaganda if you have actually truth from the ground. Of course, the truth on the ground is what they want to avoid at any cost. So that is why they don’t have any mainstream crew. I mean mainstream media crews in Donbass itself, because what those crews would report on? Just one example. I won’t name any names, but, I witnessed quite a few times Western independent journalists who would come to Donbass and at first they were trying to be neutral and objective. But after three or four or five days after they’ve been through Ukrainian shelling of Donbass, after they they’ve heard Ukrainian bombs exploding around their heads in their neighborhood, they would actually call me and say “I hope that our air defense is going to answer.” “Our air defense” meaning Donbass air defense. So only after a couple of days those Western journalists would not sympathize, but they would become in their minds one with the military of Donbass. I guess the mainstream journalists would probably think and behave the same way in order to avoid that they’re just not going to Donbass.
After the start of a special military operation on the territory of Ukraine, anti-Russian propaganda in the Western media has only intensified, Russian citizens living abroad regularly become victims of Russophobia. In your opinion, who benefits from inciting anti-Russian sentiments in society?
That list would be long because Russphobia, along with Serbophobia, is one of the preferred hobbies of the West for quite a while. They’ve been doing that for centuries, for decades. I mean, just when you think about that, it’s nothing but Russophobia to go on with the lie that Stalin killed tens of millions of Russians. Just think about if that were true, what would that say about Russians? Nothing good. Of course, I know that many of the historians did investigate those claims, and it turns out that it’s by far exaggerated, that the actual number of total victims under Stalin’s rule, 30 years of Stalin’s rule, is less than a million. So why do they exaggerate 20 times, 30 times, 40 times? Because they want to humiliate Russia and the Russians.
They want to demonize us?
Yeah, of course, they want to not only demonize, humiliate because, they’re not just demonizing. They actually want Russia to feel disgraced, humiliated, defeated, desperate. Just like they wanted Serbs to feel that way. Now, luckily for the Russians, you know, you’re not as small country as Serbia, and you have much bigger resources than Serbs have so you’re probably not going to allow all that. And I can only salute you for that. You know that you are willing to use all your resources to fight that. And because they know that they cannot hurt Russia, they will try to hurt Russians. If they cannot hurt Vladimir Putin or Dimitri Medvedev or Igor Strelkov, you know, okay, then they will hurt Seriozha who lives in next building, though they know him for the last ten years and even drank coffee with him for once in a while. Yeah, they will try to humiliate him. They will try to hurt him because that makes them feel empowered. That is the essence of Western imperialism. It’s all about show. So if you can’t hurt Russia or Russian officials or Russian military, if you’re actually afraid of the Russian military, then hurt at least some Russian in order for you to feel good. That’s it.
We all know about this Russian witch hunt, how they hunt on Russian citizens abroad and extradite them for no reason. Why do you think that so far no one from the military and political leadership of the United States and NATO countries has been brought to justice for crimes committed in Iraq, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and so on?
Well, for the same reason, I guess, that Hitler would never try and sentence his generals. I mean, he would never try and sentence Himmler or whoever, you know. So, yeah, he would never try Goebbels. If Hitler won, thankfully, he didn’t, but if Nazi Germany won the war, Goebbels would never be on trial. For the same reason none of the NATO generals will ever be on trial if Americans have the last say on it. I can only hope that individuals like Wesley Clark, who was the NATO’s supreme general when Serbia was bombed, I can only hope that justice will come for him one day. I can only hope that Russia will be the provider of that justice because that is the justice that I will be able to rely on.
The German government is already urging its citizens to prepare for one of the “coldest winters in history”, gas prices are setting new records every day. When do you think the leaders of European countries will begin to realize that they have become the only victims of American hegemony and will be able to fight back against the United States?
You do realize that I’m a Serb? I think it’s impossible to invoke any sympathy from me, sympathy for the Western people, especially the German people. It’s their funeral. They say that they’re a democracy. So, okay, so that means that are in agreement, more or less total agreement with their government at this point. So their government chose for them to suffer the next winter. Who’s to blame? All in themselves. Not even the government is to blame. They are to blame. If they are cold, come January, if they are cold, come February, if they are without heat or food or gas or whatever, or without gasoline, who to blame? Themselves. I don’t even feel bad for stating something as cynical as that. But yet, even though I don’t enjoy anyone’s suffering, I don’t feel sorry for them. I’m not happy for what they will suffer. But on the other hand, I also don’t feel sorry for them. I feel much sorrier, I feel much more sympathy for all the victims of Western imperialism that had to pay for the luxurious life that Germans and other Europeans were leading for the past decades and maybe even centuries. I feel much, much sorrier for Africans, for example. I feel much sorrier for Congo people who suffered one of the most vicious genocides in history in order for Belgians to have their luxury, luxurious life. So if it’s now time for comeuppance, okay, maybe it’s time for Belgians and Germans and everyone else to pay the price for their imperialism. I feel no sorry for them.
In your opinion, is it possible to say that Americans deliberately support conflicts around the globe “in a hot state” in order to earn as much money as possible on the sale of weapons and equipment?
Practically in every conflict there is America will support the wrong side. But I don’t think that it’s only about money. It’s more about power. They actually want power. Of course, in international politics and geopolitics power usually translates to money.
They want to have an empire.
They want to have an empire, and they don’t want to call it an empire. That’s just a weird thing. You know, every previous empire in history was actually proud of that term, of that achievement, the Americans want not only to be feared, they want to be feared and liked. And this is the problem. That is, I think, one of the reasons for their …
Schizophrenia in their minds, in their ideology.
They are very delusional.
Yeah. They want to be feared and liked. Americans that want to be only feared, I can understand them on some level. Americans that want to be only liked, I can understand and even cooperate with them, even have some productive relation with them. But from my experience, the vast majority of Americans want to be both feared and liked. And you can’t actually deal with those people in any other way but to protect yourself.
How do you think NATO’s foreign policy will change after Finland and Sweden join the alliance? Will their policy become even more aggressive?
Definitely, because those two military superpowers are I mean, that’s a that’s a game changer, you know, because right now when they add to their superior numbers and the skilled soldiers to the NATO, NATO will be able to do whatever. I’m kidding, of course.
I was like, okay, I know Sweden has factories and whatever where they do make weapons, but like are they that strong? Military power?
I’ve never been to Finland, but I visited Sweden a few years ago and I saw that they’re unable to resist migrants. So if a country who cannot resist migrants, who is terrified of the migrants, if that country is addition to any military alliance, then that’s not the military alliance I would like my country to be in. So yeah, good luck, sarcastically saying, good luck to them.
And the last question. Can you please predict when and how the conflict in Ukraine will end? What goals will be fulfilled and which areas will eventually become part of the Russian Federation?
Donbas will hopefully. I’m seeing hopefully because I do sympathize to no end with the people of Donbass. And from what I’ve seen, I witnessed the Donbass region number of times during the last six years. And as I already said, this year I spent there four months. And yes, they do want to join Russia. They deserve that. As for other parts of former Ukraine, parts like Zaporozhye, parts like Kherson area, parts like Kharkov, where I’ve actually never been to, who knows? I think that after Donbass is liberated totally liberated, the first phase of the war will stop, the intense phase of the war will stop. And then it will probably become something like as they say a frozen conflict, meaning that there will be fighting across the line of division, but the rest of liberated areas or areas that are still under Ukrainian control will probably be more peaceful than they are today. The heavy fighting will cease at least for some time. And who knows what will happen then. Depending on what will remain in whatever we call Ukraine may be that Ukraine will not be happy with itself. They have already lost their strongest industrial zone, which is Donbass. They have already lost almost completely their coastline. So how will that Ukraine support itself? How will it sustain itself? It’s anyone’s guess, but I don’t think that they have a bright future ahead of them. So maybe that will result in intention to rejoin Russia. I mean, who knows? Maybe it will result in their intention to join Germany, I mean, or Poland, we’ll see. I think it’s anyone’s guess. My best prediction is that after Donbass is liberated, there will probably be referendums in the Donbass republics, in Zaporozhye region, in Kherson region, maybe in Odessa if overtook from Ukrainian control. Whatever the outcomes of those referendums will be, I think that Donbass will certainly vote in favor of rejoining Russia, probably Odessa too, if that comes to Odessa. For Zaporozhye and Kherson I’m not so sure because people there, they just want peace. My impression was that they don’t really care who rules all of them. It’s not like Donbass. Donbass was ready to go to war in order to protect their civil rights, their human rights, their ethnic and cultural rights. People in other areas not so much. Maybe they do like Russian culture or Russian language or Russian economy, but they don’t really care one way or another. That was my impression. Of course, that’s not a crime. They have the right to be that way, and they have the right to choose their own future. So maybe they will choose to rejoin Russia because let’s remember, that’s only a hundred or more years ago all that was Russia. So maybe they will vote in favor of rejoining Russia. But I think that after Donbas is liberated, we will probably witness the more calm phase of the war. What comes after that is anyone’s guess.